The Bear is back: Russia is an enemy again

[treesmoke]

Originally Posted by Harpoon

You're right... I see it now..

Just think how many Georgian soldier that got killed thinking the exact same thing we did.
"Is that a piece of wood on his gun",

"No it's plastic"
"No it look more like a strap" Pop pop pop.

[treesmoke]

Originally Posted by Nemowork

From the magazine its a standard Dragunov sniper rifle but for some reason he's tied the sling to the front sight! Dont ask me, ask him if you can speak chechen!

Are there Chechens in the Russian army that are trusted?

[Evets]

I really don't think the Ruskies are bothered by friendly fire or not hitting Military only targets, they've already hit a block of flats... twice (on seperate days).

There's also a video up on Liveleak of a Russian jet launching 3 rockets at a BBC News crew:

[Nemowork]

Lots of them, basically the surviving Chechens decided it was better to be on the Russians side than against them, they make up the Vostok special forces unit and are chasing Georgian stragglers and snipers round the hills of Ossetia.

They still got a terrible reputation for rape, pillage, extortion and kidnapping but the Russians seem to figure as long as theyre doing it to an enemy not Russians its fine by them!




The Ossetian forces are even worse, a strange mix of North and south ossetians, cossacks, displaced serbs and all sorts of weird people

[Tinysmasher]

Watch, somehow the world will spin this as the United States fault.

[AnthemZ]

Originally Posted by Tinysmasher

Watch, somehow the world will spin this as the United States fault.

I've already seen it!


It's like the Cold War! The Soviet Union was ready to race across Europe and eat up all the Croissants! But it was all the U.S.'s fault for provoking them??

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Tinysmasher

Watch, somehow the world will spin this as the United States fault.

Not sure what the point of the cynicism is. Yes, there are always people with dumb views. But Europe is very much afraid of Putin's Russia, and there's no mistaking his brutality or his "might makes right" philosophy.

There's not even a patina of socialist ideology behind today's Russian power-- there were dunderheads who actually believed the Soviet propaganda-- Russia doesn't actually have propaganda, just "would you like to die?"

Again and and again, he's carred out "in your face" military action, to punish and to dominate. I haven't heard anyone blame the US. We may not have pursued the best policies at each juncture, but Putin really is all the things W described Saddam: "ruthless dictator?" yup. "Grave and gathering danger" Check.

[Nemowork]

*cough*

George W Bush likes to give people nicknames. It is nice for those who receive them - especially journalists and politicians, as it gives them the sense that they are on the inside track.

Those who do not get them, dismiss them as a sign that parts of Dubya - his name for himself - never really grew up.

Mr Bush has given Vladimir Putin, the steely-faced son of the KGB and now President of Russia, a nickname. It is Pootie-Poot.

It is not known if Pootie-Poot will respond with his own offering.

Improbable relationship

But all this indicates that relations between Mr Bush and Mr Putin are good. And it has been growing for some time. Remember last June, when Mr Bush surprised the world by declaring after a meeting with Mr Putin in Slovenia: "I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul."

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Nemowork

*cough*


But all this indicates that relations between Mr Bush and Mr Putin are good. And it has been growing for some time. Remember last June, when Mr Bush surprised the world by declaring after a meeting with Mr Putin in Slovenia: "I looked the man in the eye. I was able to get a sense of his soul."

That reminds me of Hunter S Thomson's comment about Nixon

""He could shake your hand and stab you in the back at the same time."

That's Putin. He's an evil SOB, but unfortunately for us, he's an evil SOB who has a very clear idea of what he's doing. And unlike our President, Pooty-poot isn't interested in other people's souls-- just the size of their bankbook, the size of their armory, and their willingness to use it.

[treesmoke]

I kind of dont think we have to worry about direct interactions with there military. More so i think we have to worry about under minding of other countries government KGB influenced uprising.

I mean the Russian like money not glory, and unlike Iran, one of there goals is not to see the destrotion of Isreal or to regain Alaska.

There are a few reasons why the Russian should be worried about their own government (Remember the Russian Apartment Bombings of the 90's)

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by treesmoke

Are there Chechens in the Russian army that are trusted?

The Russians trust Chechens like they trust other people-- they trust people who know that they'll kill them if they fuck around. They're not a society built on lovingkindness or belief in some political philosophy. Russia runs on brutality-- in their history, that's "what works". The Mongol invasions left an impression.

[treesmoke]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The Russians trust Chechens like they trust other people-- they trust people who know that they'll kill them if they fuck around. They're not a society built on lovingkindness or belief in some political philosophy. Russia runs on brutality-- in their history, that's "what works". The Mongol invasions left an impression.

Didn't mean it like that i met trust like let them use tanks or trust them enough not to side with the enemy.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by treesmoke

Didn't mean it like that i met trust like let them use tanks or trust them enough not to side with the enemy.

Russian military doctrine is built on supervision and coercion. You do what you're ordered to, under the eyes of others. They've always had conscript armies of people they hated and didn't trust . . . they're used to that. . . . Putin's got Chechens in his. Its the same strategy: "you keep your guns pointed where we tell you, or you and your family die".

The Cossacks are another good example . . . they hated the Russians and vice versa . . . they're very much like the Chechens. The Russians get on with them fine, by their standards . . . they slaughter them, and make use of them

[treesmoke]

Well then the next question should be, what is a real Russian. Are siberians real russia or are they too asian look to be that. Are only the non jewish european people russians or does it spread into the asian part of their country too.

The Russian are not entirely racist there are still number of black Africans that are becoming citizen there. And the government didnt care to much about the Neo-Nazi movement that was attacking them and beheading people on video. I think they got the leader torture him a little and made him apologize for his actions on the news.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by treesmoke

Well then the next question should be, what is a real Russian. Are siberians real russia or are they too asian look to be that. Are only the non jewish european people russians or does it spread into the asian part of their country too.

The Russian are not entirely racist there are still number of black Africans that are becoming citizen there. And the government didnt care to much about the Neo-Nazi movement that was attacking them and beheading people on video. I think they got the leader torture him a little and made him apologize for his actions on the news.

Got news for you: they hate black folks, and their racism is extreme. The fact that they have a neo-Nazi movement tells you what to know -- they lost 30 million people to the Germans, and they still like Nazis! Why? Partly cuz they identify the Nazis as the people who hated the Jews, blacks etc the most.

They have a clear idea of what a "real Russian" is. Its partly ethnic, its partly religious, partly linguistic, and partly geographic. In Soviet days, your internal passport would have your "nationality" in it.

Originally Posted by BBC

BBC NEWS
Racist attacks that stain Russia
By James Rodgers
BBC News, St Petersburg, Russia

"It was because of my colour. They don't like us. They didn't like my skin."

Yunus Sultonov, a market trader from Tajikistan, was explaining why a gang had killed Khursheda, his nine year old daughter.

Yunus had taken Khursheda skating. They were on their way home when the attackers struck.

We were talking in a cold, damp storeroom where Yunus rests when he is not looking after his stall.

His wife Maljuda was there too, but she did not say anything. She just looked at a picture of her daughter, then wept.

'A lost generation'

Russians are fed up with being humiliated in their own country
Yuri Belyaev

The streets of St Petersburg are dangerous for outsiders.

After dark, bands of skinheads will attack anyone who is not white.

They are so proud of their murderous acts that they have even filmed some of them.

The skinheads are a lost generation whose childhood disappeared in the chaos of Russia in the 1990s.

Now in their teens and early twenties, they have embraced a twisted creed of hatred and violence.

Yuri Belyaev is one of its authors. He describes himself as a racist. He claims widespread public support for his views.

"Russians are fed up with being humiliated in their own country. Negroes have more rights here and immigrants own all the property," he told me.

He makes light of the current wave of attacks saying, "The resistance you see for now is of the most innocent kind."

Unsafe streets

Alexander Sungurov has been active in liberal politics in St Petersburg since the last days of the Soviet Union.

With the certainties of communism and cold war gone, he says, the racists' simple message appeals to youth without prospects or purpose.

"They try to have their identity through killing - looking for some enemy. Who is the enemy? Not Americans, but people with other colour of skin."

That seems to have been the simple, brutal motive for one of the most recent killings.

Sall Samba Lampsar, a student from Senegal, was shot dead on his way home from a nightclub.

Africans and others are scared. They feel that not enough is being done to protect them.

Earlier this month, they demonstrated to demand better protection from the police.

We asked the St Petersburg authorities for an interview, but no-one would talk to us.

Their critics say that they have no clear plan to deal with the violence - and this in a city which is a magnet for business people, students and tourists from abroad.

Ali Nassor came here from Zanzibar 20 years ago.

He has lived in the city through all the upheavals and uncertainty of the last two decades. He says life for outsiders has never been as bad.

"We are just being killed openly," he told me. "I mean, it's just no more under control."

Reputation

Yunus Sultonov echoes that feeling of defencelessness. The jury at the trial of his daughter's killers found them guilty of "hooliganism", not murder. As a result, they received lighter sentences.

"They weren't sorry for the girl they killed, they were sorry for them," he says of the verdict which was reached last month.

"They were 15 or 16 years old so they were sorry for them. They weren't sorry for my daughter."

In July, St Petersburg - the home town of President Vladimir Putin - will host the G8 summit of the world's richest and most powerful countries. They are already smartening up the city's streets and buildings.

For the visit of presidents and prime ministers, St Petersburg will shine.

The stain that racist murders have left on its reputation will be harder to remove.