Serious Discussion - Page 5

AnthemZ · 07-21-2007, 08:22 PM

I try to post stories from across the board that might generate fair debate, but every day we get a new thread on how evil Bush or the U.S.A. is. This topic is getting old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!. It's always the same damn thing, all the U.S. haters stop in and high five each other, and a few American's fight back. Every thread turns into the same thing! If it's the weather, it's Americas fault! If it's high gas prices, it's Americas fault! If some crazy dictator kills his people, it's Americas fault....... It never ends. Then if you tell people to cool their shit, they cry and complain they are being censored. What next??

**Mugzy** · 07-21-2007, 09:01 PM

You know there is nothing wrong with a little levity, even here in SD, but the constant barrage of bashing and repetitive topics (or hijacked to that end0 is just unhealthy and frankly boring. Surely there are other politically charged forums to go vent your frustrations!

Haswell · 02-18-2008, 03:25 PM

I think this site is superb.

I came for the music and stayed for the discussions; there is always someone willing to take up the standard or the gauntlet. Excellent.

There are a lot of our American cousins on here, which seems unusual for a UK site (whilst acknowledging the net is universal) but perhaps that is why some of the topics appear somewhat 'parochial' to US politics?

As you might have discerned I am particulalry interested in faith and religion and I am thus amazed at the percentage of American contributors who profess to be Agnostic/ Atheist. This suggests, at least to me, that America may not be as theocratic as the polls would suggest.

Good.

Just as a personal wish, I'd like it if those believers (or non believers for that matter) would follow up some of their more interesting points. Why people should back off I do not know? I think you should be at least willing, if not altogether capable, of defending such beliefs and I think it makes for great discussions since we keep returning to the subject.

This is a great discussion area. The challenge is to debate a point without recourse to personal invective and I think that is one of the appealing parts of this forum.

deepsepia · 04-07-2008, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haswell

There are a lot of our American cousins on here, which seems unusual for a UK site (whilst acknowledging the net is universal) but perhaps that is why some of the topics appear somewhat 'parochial' to US politics?

There are some "Euro" subjects about which Americans couldn't care less. Formula 1, Posh spice, Manchester United . . . you won't see anyone on this side of the Atlantic chiming in . . . we don't care.

But other stuff is very topical, and with an interesting slant. You get a mix of Euro-views, as well as American views. I don't agree with him on much, but Shotgun, for instance, is useful to hear-- you won't hear the voice of an African American soldier so clearly in many other places. Its always been easy to find people who agree with you-- what's cool about the Internet is that you can actually engage people who disagree with you, on occasion, if the whole thing doesn't turn to flaming. And Mersault is fascinating . . . the voice of a moderate modern Germany . . . you don't hear that here, at all; pretty odd that I find that I agree with him more than most Americans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haswell

As you might have discerned I am particulalry interested in faith and religion and I am thus amazed at the percentage of American contributors who profess to be Agnostic/ Atheist. This suggests, at least to me, that America may not be as theocratic as the polls would suggest.

you have to consider the "selection effect". The religious community in America is large, but they are not well represented here . . . they are profoundly suspicious of the Internet, and while I'm perfectly comfortable scanning Allison Angel's magnficent bosom and chatting about evolution, Iraq, or whatever, that would not be true for religious conservatives (its not that they don't read porn -- they do-- its that they're much guiltier about it).

If you want a flavor of nutso-America:
http://www.family.org/
http://www.creationmuseum.org/
http://www.icr.org/

This will restore your confidence in American imbecility. Particularly from an UK perspective, its worth considering that every British religious freak had the option of moving to an entire nation that welcomes religious freaks, indeed, which was founded on that principle. You might consider how many of the nutty religious leaders of the US actually have pretty pure English or Scottish bloodlines. . . had their not been a United State, Warren Jeffs would be living down the road from you.

(instead, he lives down the road from me)

**Mugzy** · 04-07-2008, 01:20 PM

More interesting than I expected.

Many good points brought up by both of you. Some of my own for consideration: Though we have a U.K. address, we are indeed multicultural and we are well represented throughout the world. Sure the bulk of actual membership lies in both the U.K. and the U.S., the voices heard are from around the world. Sometimes the topics (in SD) are so strictly relevant to one country or another, the discussion tends to be narrow minded, so to speak and or irrelevant so opinions may not garner much interest or will also be felt as counter productive to those in the know.

This thread was created as a reminder that here at AS we will be intolerant of personal attacks. Perhaps we have lapsed again into a lax attitude where we (mods) find it difficult at best to be, first, interested in the topic, and second, analytically correct to discern all of the veiled and pointed jabs. We do this "job" on our free time and mainly we are here for the fun portion of the site. We discussed the SD area at length, knowing there would likely be pitfalls along the way but with a resolve that we would endeavour to keep discussions civil and not outright ban members for their missteps. On the other hand, should threads continue to evoke personal attacks on each other, there will be little other option than either to ban members or shut down the SD area completely.

Haswell · 07-31-2008, 06:31 PM

But where the Hell is everybody?

I could imagine there is a sizeable amount who have me on 'ignore'.

Meh.

It doesnt account for the lack of postings. Things used to be vibrant and open here but it seems as flat as a witch's tits at the moment.

I knew I could always come here and get a response, particularly from the apologists of religion. Don't telll me they are going chicken on us?

Or could it be they have the decency to be too embarrased by some of the things they have taken for granted?

Have people been chased away?

deepsepia · 07-31-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haswell

It doesnt account for the lack of postings. Things used to be vibrant and open here but it seems as flat as a witch's tits at the moment.

Have people been chased away?

I think we've worked our way through most of the hot button issues. I pretty much know what the "regulars" think about most of the high profile issues of the day . . . the heat came when I first joined, and ran into ideas which I considered outrageous-- Sertes on 9/11, or Shotgun on Palestine/Zionism come to mind.

But having said my piece on those issues, there's no need to repeat . . . except, I suppose, for my over-riding conviction that George Bush is an inadequate man who by accident of birth and inattention of the electorate, became President. I will happily excoriate him forever, but as AnthemZ or Lance pointed out, everyone knows that's what I think . . . so that needs a rest, too.

Haswell · 07-31-2008, 07:43 PM

Fear not to strike Deeps. It will be a worse forum if anyone holds back from discussion because others have 'heard it before'.

It is also notable that not everyone posts regularly so its not for them to decide who posts what and when.

I think taking the piss out of Dubya is the only thing we have left. That and his incredible command of the Queens English. Can't think of a word? well just make that little sucker up.

**Nemowork** · 08-01-2008, 12:06 AM

It is a bit quiet around here at the moment isnt it, i guess a lot of the really polarising issues are gone or at least people are sick of them after so many years.

Give it a few months and a few new issues and we'll probably be back up to speed.

Tinysmasher · 08-01-2008, 03:25 AM

I'm sort of new posting after a year of lurking.

American, probably more libertarian in views than anything. Basically I dislike the government taking my money or telling me what to do any more than absolutely necessary. I work for a military contractor doing various projects and I own a (very) little general stock including oil.

It seems to me there's so many people today in the world willing to take either the far left or the far right version of the world without barely a question. Either bush is the devil reincarnate and al gore is their personal fucking hero or some other extreme vision of the world. No one ever considers that there is probably an agenda from the other side of things and that the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

Sertes · 08-01-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinysmasher

I'm sort of new posting after a year of lurking.

American, probably more libertarian in views than anything. Basically I dislike the government taking my money or telling me what to do any more than absolutely necessary. I work for a military contractor doing various projects and I own a (very) little general stock including oil.

I think your view is Republican, to the fullest extent, the gov should be thin and not interfering except for the really necessary cases.

Quote:

It seems to me there's so many people today in the world willing to take either the far left or the far right version of the world without barely a question. Either bush is the devil reincarnate and al gore is their personal fucking hero or some other extreme vision of the world. No one ever considers that there is probably an agenda from the other side of things and that the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

That's the basics of propaganda, you're either with us or with the enemy, so basically you accept one side even if it doesn't suit you because the other is so repugnant.

---

I got to a thousand post doing only SD on many controversial issues and sometimes with extreme positions, but I'm still here, so I think I have to thank the mods for being true to their duty of impartiality, it's very good to find this kind of behavior in a forum which didn't start out as SD. Of course there is strife between users, as I see many outrageous positions on torture other may see outrageous my position on 9/11, that was expected, but even then I think it's always good to see the different point of view on serious matters from people around the globe.

TheLancinator · 08-01-2008, 11:35 AM

I didn't even notice...congratz on the 1000 posts Sertes

I know we rarely see eye to eye on anything, but it's good having you here...there's been some good spirited debates

**Meursault** · 08-01-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sertes

I got to a thousand post doing only SD on many controversial issues and sometimes with extreme positions, but I'm still here, so I think I have to thank the mods for being true to their duty of impartiality, it's very good to find this kind of behavior in a forum which didn't start out as SD. Of course there is strife between users, as I see many outrageous positions on torture other may see outrageous my position on 9/11, that was expected, but even then I think it's always good to see the different point of view on serious matters from people around the globe.

don't worry, you don't get banned just because you disagree with one or several or all mods on any given matter...as long as everyone plays fair we can enjoy a heated even polemic debate and nobody gets hurt. HAppy 1K by the way.

deepsepia · 08-01-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sertes

I think your view is Republican, to the fullest extent, the gov should be thin and not interfering except for the really necessary cases.

That's not really the Republican position -- unless the Republican is Ron Paul.

At this point, its rather hard to nail down what "Republicans stand for". Once upon a time, they stood for fiscal responsibility. They don't now, except for a small group of "deficit hawks". Once upon a time, they opposed big government and the intrusion of same into people's lives-- this Administration has embraced it.

Probably the only issues where one could say with some degree of accuracy "a Republican would think X, and a Democrat would think Y" are social issues

Tinysmasher · 08-01-2008, 11:26 PM

You could accuse me of being a Reagan republican I guess. Except I don't care for the Christian far right and their attempts to legislate morality. I sort of equate it with the eco-freaks and their attempts to legislate their own brand of near religious fervor with roughly the same amount of science backing up either side lol.

07-21-2007, 08:22 PM	#61
AnthemZ Waiting For My Handout! Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 8,057 Thanks: 6 Thanked 32 Times in 18 Posts	I try to post stories from across the board that might generate fair debate, but every day we get a new thread on how evil Bush or the U.S.A. is. This topic is getting old!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!. It's always the same damn thing, all the U.S. haters stop in and high five each other, and a few American's fight back. Every thread turns into the same thing! If it's the weather, it's Americas fault! If it's high gas prices, it's Americas fault! If some crazy dictator kills his people, it's Americas fault....... It never ends. Then if you tell people to cool their shit, they cry and complain they are being censored. What next?? __________________ Sig by Teabelly!

07-21-2007, 09:01 PM	#62
Mugzy Mod, All AS teams, Friend Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: On the edge Posts: 69,946 Thanks: 2 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	You know there is nothing wrong with a little levity, even here in SD, but the constant barrage of bashing and repetitive topics (or hijacked to that end0 is just unhealthy and frankly boring. Surely there are other politically charged forums to go vent your frustrations! __________________ __________________

02-18-2008, 03:25 PM	#63
Haswell Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 932 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think this site is superb. I came for the music and stayed for the discussions; there is always someone willing to take up the standard or the gauntlet. Excellent. There are a lot of our American cousins on here, which seems unusual for a UK site (whilst acknowledging the net is universal) but perhaps that is why some of the topics appear somewhat 'parochial' to US politics? As you might have discerned I am particulalry interested in faith and religion and I am thus amazed at the percentage of American contributors who profess to be Agnostic/ Atheist. This suggests, at least to me, that America may not be as theocratic as the polls would suggest. Good. Just as a personal wish, I'd like it if those believers (or non believers for that matter) would follow up some of their more interesting points. Why people should back off I do not know? I think you should be at least willing, if not altogether capable, of defending such beliefs and I think it makes for great discussions since we keep returning to the subject. This is a great discussion area. The challenge is to debate a point without recourse to personal invective and I think that is one of the appealing parts of this forum. __________________ “So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You’d better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can’t rearrange the universe.” - Asimov. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10

04-07-2008, 01:20 PM	#65
Mugzy Mod, All AS teams, Friend Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: On the edge Posts: 69,946 Thanks: 2 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	More interesting than I expected. Many good points brought up by both of you. Some of my own for consideration: Though we have a U.K. address, we are indeed multicultural and we are well represented throughout the world. Sure the bulk of actual membership lies in both the U.K. and the U.S., the voices heard are from around the world. Sometimes the topics (in SD) are so strictly relevant to one country or another, the discussion tends to be narrow minded, so to speak and or irrelevant so opinions may not garner much interest or will also be felt as counter productive to those in the know. This thread was created as a reminder that here at AS we will be intolerant of personal attacks. Perhaps we have lapsed again into a lax attitude where we (mods) find it difficult at best to be, first, interested in the topic, and second, analytically correct to discern all of the veiled and pointed jabs. We do this "job" on our free time and mainly we are here for the fun portion of the site. We discussed the SD area at length, knowing there would likely be pitfalls along the way but with a resolve that we would endeavour to keep discussions civil and not outright ban members for their missteps. On the other hand, should threads continue to evoke personal attacks on each other, there will be little other option than either to ban members or shut down the SD area completely. __________________ __________________

07-31-2008, 06:31 PM	#66
Haswell Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 932 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	But where the Hell is everybody? I could imagine there is a sizeable amount who have me on 'ignore'. Meh. It doesnt account for the lack of postings. Things used to be vibrant and open here but it seems as flat as a witch's tits at the moment. I knew I could always come here and get a response, particularly from the apologists of religion. Don't telll me they are going chicken on us? Or could it be they have the decency to be too embarrased by some of the things they have taken for granted? Have people been chased away? __________________ “So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You’d better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can’t rearrange the universe.” - Asimov. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10

07-31-2008, 07:43 PM	#68
Haswell Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 932 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fear not to strike Deeps. It will be a worse forum if anyone holds back from discussion because others have 'heard it before'. It is also notable that not everyone posts regularly so its not for them to decide who posts what and when. I think taking the piss out of Dubya is the only thing we have left. That and his incredible command of the Queens English. Can't think of a word? well just make that little sucker up. __________________ “So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You’d better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can’t rearrange the universe.” - Asimov. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10

08-01-2008, 12:06 AM	#69
Nemowork Whats a safety catch? Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mobilis in Mobilii Posts: 24,639 Thanks: 6 Thanked 16 Times in 7 Posts	It is a bit quiet around here at the moment isnt it, i guess a lot of the really polarising issues are gone or at least people are sick of them after so many years. Give it a few months and a few new issues and we'll probably be back up to speed. __________________ “A wise man is superior to any insults which can be put upon him, and the best reply to unseemly behavior is patience and moderation.” Moliere "You do the unseemly behavior, I'll handle the moderation" - Nemo

08-01-2008, 03:25 AM	#70
Tinysmasher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 462 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm sort of new posting after a year of lurking. American, probably more libertarian in views than anything. Basically I dislike the government taking my money or telling me what to do any more than absolutely necessary. I work for a military contractor doing various projects and I own a (very) little general stock including oil. It seems to me there's so many people today in the world willing to take either the far left or the far right version of the world without barely a question. Either bush is the devil reincarnate and al gore is their personal fucking hero or some other extreme vision of the world. No one ever considers that there is probably an agenda from the other side of things and that the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

08-01-2008, 11:35 AM	#72
TheLancinator Rhymes with Orange Join Date: Jul 2006 Tournaments Won: 2 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 113,026 Thanks: 76 Thanked 735 Times in 515 Posts	I didn't even notice...congratz on the 1000 posts Sertes I know we rarely see eye to eye on anything, but it's good having you here...there's been some good spirited debates __________________

08-01-2008, 11:26 PM	#75
Tinysmasher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 462 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You could accuse me of being a Reagan republican I guess. Except I don't care for the Christian far right and their attempts to legislate morality. I sort of equate it with the eco-freaks and their attempts to legislate their own brand of near religious fervor with roughly the same amount of science backing up either side lol.